Fuck you.

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
04/03/2018 at 09:46 • Filed to: None

Is a federal crime a lifehack? ask this idiot.

As the article says:

Some “fines” aren’t exactly what they seem, though. If you’re in an area known to have corruption problems—Mexico, Russia, parts of Africa, parts of Southeast Asia—any fines you’re asked to pay might just be them asking for a bribe. Again, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Give them cash and be on your way. They !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , so don’t give them any reason to harass you further. The best you can do is pay up, then let the nearest U.S. consulate know what happened. They can’t reimburse you, but they might be able to appeal to the local government, or at least warn other travelers. Always !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! before you head out so you know what you might be up against.

I don’t give a fucking shit how corrupt my police is, if you dare come to my country and further this problem, you’re part of the problem and frankly you deserve !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Let me put in terms your idiot brain might understand, when you give bread crumbs to a pigeon, does it go away? or do more pigeons come? Well that’s exactly what happens: If foreigners develop a stereotype like paying bribes rather than fines, then foreigners will be stopped more, do foreigners have this stereotype nowadays?

No, do the police collect bribes as shamelessly as before? NO!

Nowadays if you get pulled over in a place like, Cancun for example, you won’t be targeted for being foreigner, and if you do get ticketed the police officer might offer a bribe but you can just say no.

It depends where you are, but the “hassle” this asshole refers to is the normal process for fines in some cities because so many people just didn’t pay the fines through the normal route. So, the police departments had to try other techniques like taking the car to an impound yard or taking the license plates away until the fine was paid. Is this common in Mexico City? No, but it can happen in Cancun and it’s perfectly legal. If you’re fearful of being “hassled” by the police after committing a crime just hire a driver instead; it’s not a big deal and it is exactly what !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

The fact that some of us are wrong doesn’t grant all of you a blank check to do whatever you want, and if there are other solutions just use those that don’t break the law.

Plus, most fines are like at most 2000 pesos, where if you get caught offering a bribe it’s a federal crime and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

“Whoever commits the crime of bribery will be subject to the following sanctions: When the amount or value of the gift or pledge does not exceed the equivalent of five hundred times the minimum daily wage (~2200USD FY 2018) in force in the Federal District at the time the offense was committed, or not be valuable, will be imposed from three months to two years in prison, thirty to three hundred days fine and dismissal and disqualification from three months to two years to perform another public job, position or commission.

When the amount or value of the gift, promise or benefit exceeds five hundred times the daily minimum wage in force in the Federal District at the time of committing the crime, will be imposed from two to fourteen years of prison, from three hundred to thousand days fine and dismissal and disqualification from two to fourteen years to perform another public job, position or commission”

-Sketchy google translation of the Mexican Federal Criminal Code

But I need to concede that sometimes abuses are made, but I think I addressed it with my recommendation for Ash:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I only need to add:
1. Don’t give out documents (for no law gives them the right to take them away from you, they can only inspect them in Mexico City)
2. Don’t crank the window down all the way
3. Tell them the video is live.

DISCUSSION (65)

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 09:55

Honestly, this sounds like a hassle.

Ash78, voting early and often > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 09:57

This is a much bigger ethical discussion, but generally speaking I wouldn’t advise tourists to be the ones to take a stand here. We’re a tiny, tiny part of the problem. Getting tossed in jail or harassed is not a practical option for a traveler compared to a local. So I can’t say I disagree with the advice here.

I have been detained in Spain (mainly on the plain) in a small town where I was clearly paying a bribe, even though they did some “paperwork” to make it official. This was long before cell phone video, though, but I did demand that my unaccused friends come with me into the station as witnesses. It was, frankly, terrifying. The cops were out of uniform, yelling a lot, taking it personally...all for a minor trespassing violation on a construction site where the gate was left open and no signs posted.

When in Rome, tell the Romans to fix their system :D

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky
04/03/2018 at 09:57

Would you rather break a federal law with a minimum sentence or be hassled?

And this is all solved by hiring a driver anyway.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:00

you’re angry, i can sense it

#sarcasm

AestheticsInMotion > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:04

Yeah, no. Sorry but if a cop wants a small bribe I’m giving them a small bribe and breathing a sigh of relief as they leave. There’s no way in hell I’m going to try antagonizing the guy with the gun and authority over a couple bucks.

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:04

This may have been addresses in the other posts but what are the penalties for an officer who accepts a bribe?

Spanfeller is a twat > Ash78, voting early and often
04/03/2018 at 10:06

I understand how you look at it because that’s how it’s been sold in the US.

But in most cases and in all mainstream tourist destinations you can absolutely follow the law, and even if transit police is very corrupt you can always hire a driver.

My issue isn’t my country, it’s some person suggesting as advice that you break the law in another country when there are better alternatives.

In a sense police officers respect foreigners more because doing something to a foreigner is much more impact to their lives. If they try to do something to me, I’m Mexican and an embassy won’t be pushing their buttons!

Spanfeller is a twat > Ash78, voting early and often
04/03/2018 at 10:08

Last time my father was arrested in Spain he was taken to a catacomb; literally.

He said it was like torture, mind you he was caught speeding at 220km/h in a highway by a cop that had to sweep a highway accident a few weeks before.

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky
04/03/2018 at 10:09

The same, but it’s not enforced in many cases.

However the solution is simply not to further the problem by doing something else.

Spanfeller is a twat > AestheticsInMotion
04/03/2018 at 10:09

Your passport has a lot more power than their gun; they’re probably more affraid of foreigners than you of his/her gun.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:17

It seems there’s an issue here - the distinction between proactively offering a bribe, and paying a “fine” when asked, a “fine” that is actually a bribe in disguise. If the latter will cost a pittance and let me be on my way, especially if I actually broke a law, then that’s how it goes.

Not all of us are born into money and can just hire a driver for mundane transportation.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/03/2018 at 10:22

Well, by “hire a driver” they mean a taxi driver or using the hotel shuttle. There are always alternatives to breaking the law and furthering the corruption issues in a country.

Law depends by municipality, but in general you need to go to the police station to pay fines...legit fines.

Ash78, voting early and often > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:22

Fair enough. Ethically speaking, following the law is the best option and I agree, tourists often have more “clout” than locals because of the possibility of an international political incident.

But I’ll just say I’m more likely to carry a little extra cash in places where it might come in handy ;)

Hopefully I won’t have to use it...

Spanfeller is a twat > Ash78, voting early and often
04/03/2018 at 10:24

Exactly.

It’s okay to be careful with police here, the thing is... if the police force is absolutely unwilling to let you go without giving them a bribe nowadays you’re probably in a very dangerous, non-tourstical place

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:25

Police actually have authority over people, I feel like you should be more upset with them.

If someone with a gun asks me for money, I’ll give it to them. Cop or not.

Mercedes Streeter > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:27

I’m not sure about this. I’m a minority (three times over) and people with more power than me have abused that. I have my own Harvey Weinstein and was sexually assaulted in a supposed safe space. The police have abused it, even the State abused it. I’m not safe, even in a blue state that prides itself on protecting people like me.

If I’m traveling in any country and a guy with a gun is telling me to give me a bribe, not giving it to him will likely end with my death. Who the heck is going to care about a mixed race trans woman traveler who disappeared in x country? I know you guys will...but my own country won’t.

The worst part is that if I’m feeling depressed at the time, I’ll challenge the guy to pull the trigger or get out of my face.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:30

If a cop asks you to pay a “fine” that is really a bribe, but you don’t know any better, are you really breaking a law by paying it?

I know in Europe, traffic fines are often paid on the spot. I suspect many tourists would easily think the same could be true for a low level infraction in Mexico.

Maybe tax the top few a little higher and use the money to pay police a living wage.

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky
04/03/2018 at 10:30

I am extremely upset with the cops; I’m not defending them at all.

I’m just saying it takes very little (if any) compromise to be responsible and avoid making the problem worse.

Vicente Esteve > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:33

I get exactly what you mean but with tourists I would rather advice them for the easy way out. A problem like that can become a major inconvenience and ruin what would otherwise be a great trip around Mexico (Which would benefit tourism that we need a lot of).

On the other hand I will not bribe a police officer, no matter how low their bribe may be. I got pulled over for not having a front plate, which isn’t illegal in Nuevo Leon and I still asked him politely for the fine.

Spanfeller is a twat > Mercedes Streeter
04/03/2018 at 10:34

Mexico doesn’t really care about race... (Unless it’s indigenous people, then they’re really racist) but I understand your concern regarding transphobia.

But simply don’t drive here if you think it could be an issue; it’s what I’m telling everyone. Cops won’t kill an American tourist, no matter how stupid they are, and getting stopped in the street or in a hotel or a beach is nearly impossible...

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/03/2018 at 10:36

I’d love to pay more taxes if it meant cops got a better wage and training.

It is still illegal, if hard to be reprehended for it.

Spanfeller is a twat > Vicente Esteve
04/03/2018 at 10:37

But in many places politely declining is possible without reprehension. I hate the cops here, I really do, but just because they are bad it doesn’t mean we all get to be bad.

Mercedes Streeter > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:39

According to the local Mexican and Latinx population, I actually pass as their race (I’m actually half black). So I guess that’s not an issue.

I wasn’t really talking about Mexico as I was more talking about anywhere, even the US. Low lifes exist everywhere and will pounce when they can to hurt those weaker than themselves.

functionoverfashion > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 10:39

This guy agrees with you:

http://theroadchoseme.com/category/bribery

He’s an overlander traveling all through Africa right now, and he will spend whole days just waiting around, sitting by his vehicle, drinking water, to avoid paying bribes. He stays calm and is patient, and holds his ground. I’m not sure I could do what he does, but he’s been doing it for a long time, now.

Spanfeller is a twat > Mercedes Streeter
04/03/2018 at 10:45

“According to the local Mexican and Latinx population, I actually pass as their race (I’m actually half black). So I guess that’s not an issue.”

I mean... sure? I might sound like those white idiots that say “they don’t see race” but in general here you won’t be harassed within most shades of skin. As for being attacked by another foreigner here.... well, it could happen but it would have to be solved by the embassy, or at least that’s what has happened before.

I get the gist of it, sometimes the people that should protect society fail, but what I’m trying to say in this post is that the solution is not even close to what this guy said, doing that encourages them.

Spanfeller is a twat > functionoverfashion
04/03/2018 at 10:46

Well, he’s not dead/ “hassled” to death is he?

functionoverfashion > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 11:30

Exactly. His mindset when he meets a “checkpoint” which can be quite frequent in some areas, is just, “I have everything I need to survive for several days, right here in my vehicle. So I will just make myself comfortable until they get bored.”

As he is on a long-term trip, and traveling either alone or with one other person in the same situation, he can afford to wait these things out. Many factors lead your average tourist to choose the easy way out, unfortunately.

Spanfeller is a twat > functionoverfashion
04/03/2018 at 11:37

I’ve been through checkpoints here, it’s rarely an issue and I’ve been addressed in English because apparently I look foreign :p

I mean checkpoints by the military where everyone is stopped, and we have driven around many places where tourists might go and it’s completely safe and unlikely you even get stopped in the first place

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 11:54

Stabilizing nuclear fission is actually pretty easy. Fusion, on the other hand....

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 11:55

Or just don’t go to Mexico. I mean, as if I had a choice in the matter...

Spanfeller is a twat > random001
04/03/2018 at 11:57

Yes. You can stay outside if you wish.

Nothing makes our government work correctly like fearing tourists might leave. You guys weild a lot of power over them, just ask San Miguel de Allende.

Spanfeller is a twat > random001
04/03/2018 at 11:58

Im sure cops here can’t do it anyway :)

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 12:01

No, I mean, I literally do not have a choice in the matter. Travel restrictions FTW. Might as well be North Korea at this point.

Spanfeller is a twat > random001
04/03/2018 at 12:02

You’re not allowed to come?

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 12:03

Well, I do concede that point....

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 12:04

Nope. No travel to Mexico.

Spanfeller is a twat > random001
04/03/2018 at 12:05

Why?

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 12:09

Well, partly for the reasons you posted. Partly because it’s deemed very much not safe. There are enough detentions and/or kidnappings that it’s apparently not worth it. I get that the entire country isn’t as bad as the worst parts, it’s like that here, too, but it’s enough to warrant said restrictions, I guess.

Spanfeller is a twat > random001
04/03/2018 at 12:14

I understand it. I love the people of this country and this city, but I know for sure that if I wasn’t born here I wouldn’t even visit... Somedays I even have doubts of living here after finishing college

But I find it odd that you’re not allowed to come, I understand the travel advisories, maybe evdn insurance but are you literally not allowed?

random001 > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 12:21

Yeah, not allowed. It’s because of who I work for/what I do

Maxima Speed > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 12:44

Two wrongs don’t make a right, but your are arguing against a crime (paying a bribe), when in a situation where you are dealing with a criminal cop. If they are trying to bribe you they obviously aren’t fully on the up and up. Definitely err on the side of caution and pay up. I find it insulting to insinuate that tourist are encouraging the problem, when the government should be hiring decent people. Not out problem that the country is in a moral crisis.

Spanfeller is a twat > Maxima Speed
04/03/2018 at 12:59

I don’t give out bribes either, neither do 50% of Mexicans. All I’m saying is that just because they are wrong doesn’t mean you get to be wrong too and I’m not blaming tourists at all, in fact the entire blame falls on the police forces themselves.

I just ask that it’s not encouraged to tourists more, as this lifehacker article suggests.

Rememberthis is an individual advocating for a federal crime in another country; if it was the other way around the outrage would be inmense.

And even then, in most places and all the places where tourists go you can totally pay the fine without bribes and never fear for your life or safety. It’s just, as the person says, a hassle.

But traveling is filled with hassles that you live with; if I drive in the US I’ll follow your laws, even if my family members have been harrased for no reason by some cops in Texas. It doesn’t matter; just because they wronged doesn’t mean we get to wrong.

All people should have respect for the rule of law, specially in a foreign country.

functionoverfashion > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 13:04

That’s definitely a different story from what you might see in DR Congo or something. I’m sure the article you referenced isn’t talking about DR Congo.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 21:30

I don’t see the problem being with those who don’t really know they are paying a bribe. I am sure the cops make it look official, as on-the-spot fines are not unknown.

Time to tax the rich and get something done. Right!

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/03/2018 at 21:41

No, man, they take your money and stuff it in their pockets; it’s so common it’s like child’s play.

If mayors really wanted to get rid of transit corruption they’d ban impounding and force officers into wearing body cameras... really Mexico City could afford having body cameras on officers and it would mean a lot to the people and to the police too, because some officers are intimidated into receiving the bribe. It’s not a white and black issue; police in Mexico is almost it’s own society with many traumas due to the broken status of the country... we simultaneously want more police due to violence and hate them due to their abuses... but we stop somewhat short of actually understanding what drives abuses and what drives violence.... thinking we can solve everything through brute force like some sort of brutal, medieval regime.

But I digress. High taxes would solve a lot of things, even if the money was then miss used high taxes relief the disparity of wealth... be it through making everyone poorer (as it is now) or making everyone richer (as high taxes can serve to be). We don’t even need higher taxes, just enforcement of current tax laws would relief millions of people.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 22:03

As long as the person paying the fine thinks it is semi-legit, it won’t change.

Body cameras are only a partial solution - you’ve seen what happens in the US, they get muted or disabled. Police in the US might not be much better - the good ones are great, but the bad ones are awful, and the good won’t call out the bad.

I assume the actual tax laws (statutory, not effective taxes) are more progressive than in the US.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/03/2018 at 22:15

Capital gains/income is progressive and the same tax called ISR, we have (seven?) A ladder system that maxes out at 35% for earners above 250,000 pesos per month. We can have lower taxes than the US because our social security system isn’t maxed out yet and we don’t have a 600 billion dollar elephant in the room to deal with.

In my opinion we should have twice as many ladders going up to 2,000,000 pesos a month and tax that around 50-60%. I’d probably have the bottom 15% never pay ISR in the first place too.

I’d also love it if IMSS (public civilian healthcare) and ISSTE (gov worker’s healthcare) were merged and forced to give out detailed accounts of their expenditures, I’d also make the healthcare system federal only in many states. We also need a significant gas tax but that’s going to be impossible.

I’d also ban states from carrying out tax incentives.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/03/2018 at 23:19

I wonder if higher taxes would address some cop pay issues, and maybe work to alleviate the socio-economic gap (although I think the world is racing to that level, rather than the other way around).

If the US didn’t have so many elephants hanging around, maybe it could have single payer too.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/03/2018 at 23:21

I mean, we can’t really have it now; our police force is huge and we can’t just fire thousands of people that own guns so that the less evil of them get paid more can we?

I think there should be a minimum wage for civil servants and it should be closer to 60,000-70,000 pesos a month in Mexico City; this to avoid corruption and applicable to all gov positions.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 00:05

Don’t fire the bad ones for that, maybe at least hope some of the bad ones will reform themselves once they have a living wage.

Such a minimum wage is definitely a good idea, and really, all minimum wages should be tied to inflation/CPI and allow one to survive.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 00:18

Oh, 70,000 pesos is a fantastic wage, it’s a “living in the most expensive part of the city” wage. Right now police officers get paid closer to 10,000.

I think minimum wages need to be based on region, CPI here is low for most things except housing in some of the cities; that’s why a wage based on region is necessary. Also a gov wage should be higher; I understand the visceral disgust of seeing senators and such getting such a good salary but I want them to be well paid because that’s how you attract smart, ethical people to the job; no one would leave a private sector job for a worse salary and a much more unstable position in government.

However, a high minimum wage can increase CPI too, I can understand the gov minimum wage being so high, but for civilians I’d be comfortable with something much more lower... probably 3 or 4 times the current minim salary (which is around 50 cents of a dollar per hour) in urban areas and double it elsewhere. But then again very few people here actually earn minimum salary. Many are registered that way but collect money outside in cash so that the employer doesn’t pay ISR or IMSS charges on them (those on minimum salary don’t pay income tax)

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 09:47

That’s just under 4K USD/month, which in my area would get you an apartment, but if gross income, probably not an apartment and a car, nor savings of any kind. I think cops in my area average at least 5K/month gross, maybe more, and many can make 6 figures/year with a little OT (not to mention the bennies).

I don’t think gvt wages should exceed private sector wages for similar jobs. In the US, it is the benefits that are the real cost - huge pensions and other perks that private sector works virtually never will see. But here there’s little worry about stability - these are jobs where once you make it 5 years, you are virtually unable to be fired.

I know in the US, if federal minimum wage was set to a CPI starting in 1969 or so (when the lucky ones were starting out), it would be maybe 40% higher. However, states have the ability to set their own, and my state is one of the highest - which is needed with the cost of living here.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 10:02

Yeah but a very expensive apartment here could run you 35,000 pesos/month...

They also get good benefits but I still want them to have a good salary; a Legislator will be more important than a lawyer always and a Governor will be more important than a CEO and ... So I want a good incentive to attract the most ambitious...

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 10:03

Like, I want a govt made up of the elites; the closest I could get to a technocracy the better... Those people demand more than a pencil pusher to be fair.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 10:05

An expensive apartment here can be 10K USD/month. The average detached house in my city is nearing 1MM USD.

However, money can attract more than ambition. Maybe give them private sector job security instead of the in-for-5-then-life-retire-at-55 scheme they enjoy currently.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 10:06

If only the elites got to that status via knowledge and credentials rather than connections and lucky birth.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 10:10

I do believe you haven’t been introduced to the concept of UNAM... Or ColMex

When we’re given the choice between rich idiots and smart people that became rich being dubious, we normally chose the latter.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 10:11

Yah..... Cost of living here is ludacrisly low compared to how we live... It’s a really good deal if you ignore some drawbacks...

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 10:12

To be fair, there are many places in Murka with a cost of living not much higher. Can’t say I really want to live there, though. Low costs, but low amenities and low pay.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 10:16

PNW is quite good in that respect... I’d probably stay in California if I lived there... But I can appreciate how nice it is.

Mexico City is the second most expensive place, only San Pedro Garza García wins... Ask Vicente about it...

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 10:47

With everyone moving here, including people from CA for the past 30 years, there must be something right about it.

I’ve never been to Mexico City or Monterrey.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 11:13

I just need a little bit more sunshine, so anything south of Redding would be nice...

Well, Mexico City’s economy grows at 3.2% per year which is ridiculous and San Pedro (monterrey suburb) has the current tallest building in the nation, The Koi tower... a luxury residential building in an area being gentrified (Country)

Kinja'd!!!

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 16:03

It’s just like LA here - traffic and housing are nearly as bad. The weather isn’t nearly as nice, however. Must be good given the huge amount of people here from LA.

We just build lux towers for offshore speculators here.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail
04/04/2018 at 16:22

“

We just build lux towers for offshore speculators here.”

I know... some come from my country...LOL.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat
04/04/2018 at 21:12

I’d think the Mexican sketchy “investor immigrants” would prefer LA or TX or Miami. Around here, most of the residency purchasers are from China or maybe Russia.